# 78: Alchemy of Trauma: Finding Purpose Through Psychedelic Healing | James Eshleman

so when we start to understand when we integrate these wounds and integrate these traumas. A powerful gift emerges and that's often what we're meant to give to the world is the gift of the wound that we experienced when we were younger. our emotional experience, not to say that we're meant to become overwhelmed by or lost in the swamp of emotions, but that those emotions are actually the building blocks of of helping us finding the thing that we're supposed to do in the world.

All right. Welcome to the new age, human podcast. Let me host Jon Astacio and today's episode. We're talking with James Eshelman. Now, James is a psychedelic guide, transformational coach, and thought leader. If you're interested in the intersection between masculinity and psychedelics, healing wounds of the past and the reality of trauma. You've come to the right episode. Now, before we begin, I just ask, we're looking to grow the show and I want to hear from you. So what's working, what's not working. What do you want to hear more about? In the podcast. Is there anybody specific you want me to interview? I'm looking to serve the community and see what you're interested in. Now, if you want to contact and you want to give some feedback, just go to new age, human. com you'll see the contact me button. Send me an email. Go straight to me. I read every email. Now, with that said, thank you for joining me today. Let's get to the show. All right, James Eshlemen thanks for coming on the show. How's it going man?

It's going good, man. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, man I'm, actually jealous if anybody's watching he's got this awesome picture behind him of uh, I think it's a native american with a mohawk and like some face makeup. Can you just I need to address That image does it have a background what's going on there?

Yeah, well, there's a Native American fair that happens in Denver every year. And this father son duo do these incredible paintings and the father usually draws these like older, wiser men, that are very, you know, distinguished and, and the younger son paints these more colorful sort of younger identified individuals and. And I walked in and I, I really wanted to embody more of the warrior archetype. And, and so I felt this, you know, as I stared at this painting, this deep gaze from this painting, uh, of, of sort of the courage assurance and, you know, clarity that it takes to kind of be a man in, in, the world. And, uh, so it's a, serves as a source of inspiration for me. And you know, something that I, I try to embody every day.

Yeah, you know what you bring up? An interesting perspective where You saw the image and it's like It's a warrior and you're like, that's, that's. Inspiring right and especially as a guy, you know, you I remember as a kid just thinking like I'm gonna be a badass You know, like I'm gonna learn all these martial arts, you know Like you just it's in your blood that you just want to be some like dominate It's it's it's I guess whether it be the testosterone or Or the cartoons, right? It's just like, it's, it's, it's that thing. And it's actually, you know what, you're inspiring me to get something like that for myself and to put it in front of my display here when I'm talking to people just to get myself into that mode, because I'm getting into that mode, looking at your, your painting there. And I, and I do appreciate that. That is part of what you're doing. You're, you're working with an interesting. twist of combining psychedelic experiences and masculinity. And I really want to dive into that because that is part of that, like that inner journey to self discovery and I'm pretty sure you can agree that masculinity is something that needs to be worked on in today's world. But I definitely, before we get into that, I want to get into your beginnings, what got you into what you're doing now as a transformational coach, you do, you're a psychedelic guy, you're doing a lot of cool stuff, but like, what got you into that? Cause I'm sure anybody who's listening wants to know, like, how did this happen?

Mm. Well, I think like any journey, you know, there's like this long and winding path. And, uh, I was raised in sort of a traditional household and expected to fulfill roles and and I think the roles in which I was expected to play gave me some measure of, of groundedness in, in the world and, uh, gave me a path forward, you know? And, and that path was. really started off down the path of business. And and, and so I studied finance in college. Got into the finance world, uh, when I graduated and worked there for, for three years. And, and that, that path of fulfilling responsibility, you know, the responsibilities that family sort of projects on you, society projects on to you and you know, the requirement to earn and, Make money, make a living and, and raise a family and, and all of that, right? Really comes along with, uh, you know, what, what your vocation is in the world. And, uh, I, in my Y and D path, I, Just, you know, I was, I could feel myself feeling really unfulfilled in my job in, in finance. And, uh, one day just felt this compelling, you know, move almost like this outer body uh, experience where I just stood up from my desk one day, cause I, I couldn't take it anymore. I felt like I was selling my soul to the devil a little bit. And so I, I kind of quit my job right there on the spot and, uh, and then sat my first point medicine journey a few days later. And and that was to me, that was like the shedding of, of an identity or of a role, you know, that, that I was supposed to stay in business and supposed to be in finance. And that was where I was going to bring value to the world. and that was getting in the way of what I was actually supposed to be doing, which, you know, is, is to be in service to other people in a deeper, more meaningful way. but that only revealed itself over time. I had to really make that leap, you know, to, to break that identity apart, to make room for, uh, for this new one, which, which I, I had, again, no idea that, that that was what was emerging at the time. But, but that's sometimes what it takes is, is that leap of faith.

You, you straight up quit your job and a few days later went on a psychedelic trip. That's what's like getting to me because for me, I'm like, did you have a game plan? Was it just like, did you just snap? I'm, I'm very curious. And then the other question I have is were you already planning on doing a psychedelic trip before you made that decision?

Yeah, the, the trip was already on the schedule, but it, it, at the time I couldn't link the two, you know, I couldn't link the, the need or the, the, you know, me quitting my job to like, I'm stepping into this and I'm choosing a different identity. It was just like, I've had enough of this. I got to get the hell out of here. And I.

Okay.

Uh, it was January 31st, so 2017. So, I don't know what day that was specifically, but I do know the exact date. probably a Monday, yeah. I think, you know, it was very spur of the moment. Yeah.

Well, yeah,

I, when I quit that job, you know, I, I was like, I was just sitting there at my desk stewing for some reason. And, and then I just sort of left my body. I walked into my manager's office thinking I was going to give them a two weeks notice and they were like, okay, well, as security is going to escort you out of the building in five minutes, go get your things. And, and that was like, that was the assurance that I needed, that I was making the right decision.

so leading up to that, this sounds like what you you were in finance, so I'm, guessing you had a a desk a cubicle And it's like that that box prison where you have like images of your family Uh, i'm just taking a guess anxiety stress All that i'm sure that was building up, right?

Yeah. Anxiety, stress, depression. I had a really poor relationship with alcohol. You know, dealing with the, the discomfort of having to wear a mask every single day, you know, where I wasn't able to be my full true self.

Everybody was wearing a mask in the office.

yeah,

Oh my god.

yeah.

I

the professional mask. Yeah. I, you

Was it like I'm thinking of a mask that you would wear with a suit and tie. Like, is it made out of like a Is it, was it a designer mask? Like,

know, the, it was hard to connect to anything that was really, truly authentic and individuals,

yeah, you can't see their, their mouths and it's just the eyes at that point.

right. And, and there's people who are trying to build their career. And so they're presenting certain aspects of themselves, whether it's the outer wanting to project the outer success onto the world, wanting to project the the power dynamics onto the world. And and I, I'm a pretty authentic guy. And so my authenticity craves authenticity and other people. And, and I can feel the disconnect when people aren't being authentic with me. And, uh, and so it, it just, it created this rift between me and the people that I worked with that, that, you know, it, it, It was depleting to have to, you know, balance this desire for an authentic human connection in that world with the with what was actually being presented and what was being withheld. Uh, so that was just kind of a facet or a piece of it, right. Of recognizing that I wasn't in authentic relationship with my life and the world around me in that space. And so that was sort of the thing that popped me up out of my seat, I think, in hindsight and. said like, well, if it's not here, then it's got to be somewhere else. I don't know where it is, but I'm going to go and find it. So then I sat my first, you know, plant medicine journey about four or five days later and sat pretty regularly with, with ayahuasca and doing my own personal healing work. And, uh, I had a lot of work to do at that particular point in time in my life. There was again, just the depression, anxiety. The, the alcohol, I wouldn't call alcoholism, but the, the poor relationship with alcohol and, and all of that was sort of the the surface level tension that was, you know, a symptom of the deeper tension that I, I didn't really have a, uh, a more, you know, authentic, or I should say deeper relationship with, with my purpose in life. And so with plant medicine, it, it was the journey of, of. Peeling back the layers of conditioning that had been created over a life of trying to fulfill a role outside of myself rather than living, you know, an authentic life that, that was meaningful to me.

So wait, so we're talking about these layers. And when I hear layers, I think of Shrek and you know, we're like onions, right?

yeah.

Would you say that your psychedelic experiences with I think you're, before we get into like what exactly you're, you're working with my, the question that popped up in my head was each time you went through an experience, was it like another layer type of situation? Like, how was that? And was it? easy in the beginning? Is there a recommendation as far as like how fast you should go? Because I'm sure people, we all have these layers of programs that we bought into and those attachments being to our ego and, and with what you are helping people with, you're really, it seems like you're helping them de layer. So is any, any, any advice on what worked for you in that de layering process?

Hmm. Well, I, I would, you know, my journey is not a journey that most people go on. You know, my work was psychedelics. days was a, you know, I was, I was so hungry for the work. I was so hungry to peel back these layers. I had so many layers to peel back. And then I also had, you know, behind all of that too, was that this isn't what I was supposed to be doing for my vocation too, is guiding people through these experiences. So my commitment to this work in these medicines was was a commitment to understanding what it means and what it takes to hold space for people while they're going through experiences of their own. I was at once both doing my own personal work and then in the early days, unbeknownst to me, like learning more about the psychedelic realms and the realms of, you know, consciousness. That were helping to. landscape of how I would show up and serve other people, you know, in the future going forward. and, and so that it's, you know, what I experienced was, uh, you know, you kind of, uh, psychedelics open up the door, right? You still got to walk through the door and you still have to integrate the experience and make sense of it. But what I noticed about myself is that I, I was opening up. So many doors, you know, regularly and walking through them with, you know, a certain veracity that, uh, that I was, I was just so hungry for knowledge and so hungry for wisdom that, that I was gaining so much from these experiences, even though, you know, even though as frequently as I was doing them. And, and so, so it's kind of like, yeah, it's, it's, you know, you open up one door, you walk through it and then 10 more doors appear, you know, and so then you've got to walk through those 10 doors and then 10 more door doors appear to each one of those doors. And, and I just, I loved, you know, getting to to explore all those different parts of myself and what was what was teaching me so much about, about my own conditioning, my own experience as a human being and my relationship with the world around me.

When, when you say opening up doors, are you saying, in my mind, I'm thinking you're opening up a door and it's like a scene and you're, you're seeing yourself in third person. What is, uh, opening up a door mean to you?

I see them as doors of perception,

Hmm. So,

With each door that you open up, you see yourself in a different way. And there's this infinite way in which we can sort of view our human experience and, and to break free from the conditioning or the ego structures or the identities, we have to see ourselves from different perspectives and embrace, you know, this sort of multitude of perspectives that's unfolding at any particular point in time. You know, so so that's, that's kind of what it is, is just seeing yourself from, from a different lens. And and I had so many different threads of, uh, of self work that I had to do that, that these medicines, particularly ayahuasca really helped me understand a lot about myself. Psilocybin

and, I think I'm saying it right, philocybin. Psilocybin, which one do you like more? What if you had to choose? Which one do you feel you've got the most out of?

in my own personal experience, it would be ayahuasca. My relationship with that is very. natural and rich and robust. My spirit, my being works really well hand in hand with that medicine. and then from a servant, like being in service to other people, the way that I work, uh, works really well with psilocybin. And so in my Um, in my coaching sessions, I work, I work with that medicine and, and the structure of how I set up the containers that I offer to people, helps to bring out the best in that medicine for others.

Okay, so let's get into your, uh, Your, your, your sessions, what you're working with. What are your thoughts on Or maybe I should present it in a different way. How do you see these experiences that you're helping people guide, helping guide people into? How do you see this helping with masculinity? Because my thought was Isn't ayahuasca like a feminine energy? That's like that earth energy. And so you're you're going to in my mind. Okay, this is me never having a trip. I'm thinking how would you go to a feminine energy to learn about how to be more masculine? How do you how do you get that done?

Hmm. There's, I think, I mean, first and foremost, that Acknowledgement that these medicines are, are innately feminine is, is, uh, in my mind, fundamentally true. And, uh, in order to understand how they work with men, you sort of have to understand what ails men, right? And, uh, the way that traditional masculinity has been, uh, conditioned in the world is that we gain love by. playing roles and doing things for other people, right? And, uh, and sort of striving out there in the world, whether it's accomplishing, providing, protecting, there's this, always this outward energy that we have to be doing something in order to achieve, you know, You know, this capacity for love. And so what I see these medicines doing is breaking down this, uh, sort of, the silos that men put themselves in or men maybe naturally find themselves in, which is, uh, that we only get love through transaction. And so when people, when men work with medicine is the invitation to recognize the feminine nature. Whether that's feminine nature that's within or feminine nature that's without, out there in the world and, masculinity, you know, you know, kind of looking at men, you know, men as we have, we have masculine qualities and we all have feminine qualities as well. We are both, you know, providers and protectors and we also feel, you know, we, we feel emotions, um, whether people want to acknowledge it or not they're there.

like hide them all the time, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Hide them all the time or, you know, just bypass them, steamroll them. Uh, it's happening. And, and so these medicines invite us to, you know, come into contact with our feminine nature. And it's not to say that, you know, we're overtly feminine, but when we allow ourselves to feel and embrace our sensitivity, rather than close ourselves off from our sensitivity, we can become more resourced because we're more connected to life around us, right? More able to sense maybe the women in our life, maybe more able to sense the life force energy that's around us if we're out in nature, right? Or resourcing love from our environment, being able to receive love, which is a big challenge for men. And, and so, uh, by resourcing or coming into contact with our femininity, our masculinity naturally feels more nourished. And, and that's where, you know, we are, when we are at our best as men is is when we're able to nourish ourselves, our own masculinity with our own inner femininity, right? Without depending upon a feminine being in our life, you know, to provide us with what we're not giving ourselves. And, uh, and so, So that invitation is, is really important for us to do that healing work, you know, for us to feel our pain, for us to feel our anger, you know, for us to feel our sensitivity. And, and as we do, we come into contact with our, our deeper authenticity, right? What moves us emotionally in the world is oftentimes presenting the roadmap for what we're supposed to do in the world. And like from a role perspective, but From like, you know, a purpose perspective that, that we're all given these missions in life and, and, and our emotional experience, you know, not to say that we're meant to become overwhelmed by or lost in the swamp of emotions, but that, but that those emotions are actually the building blocks of of of helping us finding the thing that we're supposed to do in the world.

So it sounds like it's almost And I should have asked this earlier. I'm guessing this happened to you. This is helping. men release those emotional blockages. And yes, it's a feminine energy, but it's also giving you a different perspective of your feminine side being okay with it. And, and, and now that you're okay with it, it's more imbalanced so that you can start embracing the masculine side. Because I feel that, uh, uh, uh, Growing up, I would say most of the childhood was more like, uh, it was just me and my mom, even though she remarried, it was, uh, she had more of an influence. And so I, as a guy felt, uh, what do you call it? Contradiction in energies where the feminine energy that she's very feminine. And so I felt bad for wanting to be a guy. And then her saying, don't do this, don't do that. And trying to figure out the balance between the two. So I can appreciate that where you're, you're, you're just resetting. Right. And then you're accepting of who you are, what you, what you're interested in. And at the same time, like, it seems like, yeah, there's a lot of energy balancing going on. But what I didn't ask and I, I want to ask now is. You were going through some anxiety. You got up and you left your job and you're like this it I'm done I'm gonna get escorted out It went from two weeks to today right leaving could have been on a Monday How did that? Ayahuasca journey that you did help you and How quickly did it help maybe with what you were dealing with at that time? I'm curious.

Hmm. You know, the first experience that I had was it was my first experience with psychedelics. And so, uh, before that, I was very identified with my experience. Identified with you know, my, my belief systems, my, My identities, like I was sort of rigid and inflexible. And I think what that first experience did was allowed me to zoom out and see myself from a higher, you know, lens, a different perspective. and in that just, it sort of created space for me to play a little bit more with who I actually wanted to be. And then, you know, I've been doing this work a long time and I've done a lot of journeys, so a lot of them sort of bleed together, in a way, right? But, but the common thread In the experiences, was that it essentially created a, a deeper relationship with you know, uh, source energy, God, the divine, right. it gave me a measure of faith and trust and belief that I was being directed in life from something that was outside of myself and And I think that gave me more opportunity to just be more creative with who I am and who I want to be in the world. What, uh, what really actually inspired me rather than, you know, what what I was supposed to be doing in the world because of what I was told I was supposed to be doing in the world. Right. so that's kind of, you know, the thematic for me is, is breaking free from all of these imposed, uh, uh, roles.

hmm Yeah, because you were in a place from what I understand, you were in a place where you were just not not congruent with who you are and you in breaking free. You have all these doors you opened up and being okay with Yeah. Yourself and being in more alignment with yourself my way is more on meditation and Connecting with nature on like nature walks and stuff where you just kind of like reconnect reset and I can only imagine ayahuasca is like that rocket ship further away Your your guide A lot of trips and you helped a lot of people on trips. I think what I'm reading here is 200 plus individuals. You've, you've helped with one on one philosophy. Ceremonies since 2019. So you have, you have a good amount of experience under your belt. Do you have any stories you want to share of people that were in a very dark place and then, and then. They were able to change their their life around. I've always feel like those are like the best stories.

Yeah. Well, I, I would say that by and large, every single one of those journeys sort of has that thematic to a degree. And, uh, but then there are some stories that stand out. You know, one of the more difficult journeys that I've ever facilitated. You know, I lead everybody through a preparation process, which includes an intake and. I get a sense of, you know, who they are and what they're wrestling with in their life and also get a sense of any risk factors that, you know, might come up in the experience and and I did a journey with, uh, a gentleman maybe a year ago and We had a great preparation process. It was really solid. And then, um, I took him into a journey. And and about two hours into the experience, he sort of sat up and had this, you know, this great sense of fear in his eyes. And, uh, and it was extraordinarily challenging for him to face that and confront that. There was a voice inside of his head that was essentially telling him that I was you know, uh, uh, maybe out to get him, you know, or I was like setting him up for something. and so, you know, he had a really challenging experience and it was really challenging to facilitate that experience for him. And, uh, it ended up leading to you know, me, Kind of walking with him through his neighborhood for about two hours just to sort of, you know, ease the stress of, of the experience. But ultimately he came into contact and realized that when he was a young kid at five years old, he experienced some sexual abuse from, uh, one of his brothers. And it was a memory that he had suppressed his entire life. And, and, uh, Eventually in that experience came to a point of healing where he was able to release the responsibility that he felt for what had happened. And and, and, and through that, I think he, he really forgave himself and forgave his brother and and was able to, to heal some pretty significant demons that he had held onto for about 30 years.

Wow

Yeah, and this is a, this is a man who is, you know, a father of two, uh, two boys and, stay at home dad. And, you know, it's only made him more emotionally available to his kids. Made him able to show up in his relationship you know, that much more and, and, uh, and it's, you know, things like that when, when you're carrying around a weight that is that big, you know, for 30 years, you don't really realize just how heavy that is until you let it go. And, and so he's, since then he's just been thriving.

Wow. And, to think that he was able to remember after that experience, I really like how how much support you gave him. You walked with him for two hours. Like, is that a normal thing where like you wake up and you had this experience and you just need to walk it off it? Like, is that like a normal thing? Or is that like a one off

It doesn't happen. No, not very often. I mean, most people are, you know, able to just stay pretty much put in one place. And, and so those journeys are a lot easier for them. And for me, but what served him was getting out of the house and getting some movement in and and, uh, and so, you know, I think My responsibility as a facilitator is just to pay very deep and close attention to what is going to serve people, you know, in moving through whatever they, they're wrestling with. And so you never know exactly what that's going to look like, but just being able to respond to, uh, to, to the moment is a really important thing.

when you sit down, are you mostly working with guys or some women as well?

it's probably split about 50 50 men and women. Yeah.

Wow. I was, I was wondering if it was like mostly one direction or the other, but it sounds like you got a, an even split. That's surprising. Huh. And, uh, wow. And when you do these ceremonies, is it mainly just you and the other person or is it in a, in an area? Cause I know like some people fly out to a different country or, are you more local in the U S

I'm pretty local in like Colorado. Yeah. So, most of my clientele is here. I'd say, you know, the majority of people that find me have found me through word of mouth over the last five years. And so I've got this network of people here that, that I've worked with primarily, and then people do fly in from out of state, uh, to come and work with me. But our the way that our law here is set up in the state of Colorado allows me to do the work that I do. You know,

I remember just there's sometimes creatures that pop up Uh anything that you any themes you've seen recently that pop up Whether it be like specific experiences that people share with you. I'm very curious

ayahuasca has a lot of archetypes, you know,

Okay. So they're called archetypes. Okay.

Yeah. And, uh, specifically with that medicine, you know, the snake is, is a, is a, is an animal that shows up in those experiences quite often. The snake being the symbol of transformation, right. And the shedding of skin and and, and the, and the new skin that is revealed in that, right. A lot of these medicines, that's, that's kind of the, you know, the metaphor. And then, uh, there's also, you know, for me, what shows up often is a Jaguar. So I've sat in some medicine experiences where I'd be sitting in stillness and I have, I'd feel the presence of the Jaguar enter the room and, uh, would kind of walk around the room and not in very quiet, like it's almost stalking. But then it would kind of like walk up behind me and place its head right on top of my shoulder. And so, I have this, yeah, I, I view the, the jaguar as the protector of the jungle and, and it's a, an animal that I have a relationship with just from sort of that spiritual perspective. And then, You know, the way that the mind works too is, is we off the psyche will project images in, in the mind to help us make sense of complex topics and complex ideas. And

Mm hmm.

various mythology will show up or archetypes will show up for the individual based upon what makes sense for them and what they're going through in their life.

So what would the jaguar mean for you?

well, the Jaguar is, you know, it has the most powerful bite. By weight in the, in the cat family. And, uh, so it's, it's extraordinarily powerful. But it's also very self assured. Uh, it moves through the jungle very gracefully and sort of operates to in, in sort of this uh, very, I guess, very powerful way. Where it's, it's, uh, it's feared and respected and appreciated for its grace. And so, uh, for me, that's, that's where I draw inspiration from in terms of self assuredness and its ability to move through time and space, you know, gracefully.

I can see you having a painting of a jaguar like I you yeah, i'm, i'm not surprised At least one. What uh, i'm actually curious. What other archetypes have you seen that? Maybe weren't unexpected.

me and my experience.

You or other people, you're like, wow, I didn't think a rabbit would be inspiring, but you know, like just

Yeah.

Right.

Uh, You know, I mean, metamorphosis is something that really comes to mind and the spirit of the caterpillar, the caterpillar goes into the cocoon, right? Melts down and has to reorganize and restructure to become a butterfly. And and, and it's extraordinarily vulnerable when it's in a cocoon. And, but it needs to be vulnerable like that in order to in order to become what it's ultimately meant to become and to be able to fly as butterflies are able to. So, the caterpillar and the cocoon and the butterfly archetypes, I kind of caught me by surprise, the depth to which it has inspired me to lean into the discomfort of, you know, uh, Breaking down, you know, the inner structures of identity that I'm, you know, no longer meant to be a caterpillar, but I'm actually beginning the, uh, uncomfortable journey of becoming a butterfly. And, uh, you know, there's a beauty in that because a butterfly is not thought of as, you know, it's not a, it's beautiful, but it doesn't strike me as a very masculine, you know, powerful archetype.

Wait. So is it, is this something that you saw that was inspiring for you? That butterfly?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, through those experiences, you know, becoming the caterpillar and building your own cocoon and, you know, nesting in the discomfort and the pain of, you know, digesting our human experience and, and then and then eventually breaking open the cocoon and becoming the butterfly that, that archetype has shown up many times in many journeys.

You know, it kind of reminds me of, uh, that movie. I think it's a bug's life. Where you have the ladybug, but it was a guy and you got the guys whistling and he's like, Hey, Hey, Hey, we're not all ladies.

Yeah.

So that kind of reminds me, cause you're like, yeah, you, you wouldn't think that like a butterfly would be something that would be inspiring, but the whole depth of it and that transformation is like, wow. And it does seem like what you're doing is you're helping that. That's that transformation that you're helping everybody with. Where they're going within and they're seeing a different aspect of themselves. I can appreciate the masculine side where you're, you're okay with certain things that you've been blocking. And then, or that guy who unblocked his childhood trauma that he did not know of, I can only imagine how many people have trauma in their past. Uh, I mean, do you see that often more recently where people have a lot of trauma blocked, or do you see it like. More of like a, like a work thing. I'm curious to see like what you've seen as maybe trends for people that they're dealing with.

I think most of the. Most of the people that I work with, you know, if you really boil every experience down or every coaching container down or every client's experience down there's, there's almost always some work around a wound. Or some kind of a trauma that people need to work through. And so, uh, you know, by and large, that is you know, it's a part of every person's experience, uh, whether that trauma is like, you know, I've got to be this person for this person because that's how I get love. Or my relationship sucks because I can't communicate my feelings because when I was a kid, it wasn't safe for me to communicate my feelings without backlash from my parents. Right. Or uh, you know, I, I, I don't feel connected to my purpose because I'm trying to get love from my parents by, you know, achieving all these external outcomes without feeling at peace with my inner self. Uh, so every single issue that we're facing out there in the world always has a root in an inner conflict that we're dealing with. Uh, and I, I really, what I love to do is I love to work with that inner conflict and that inner tension, because that's what gets composted and alchemized when we go to that place. Start to understand why we do the things that we do, what we're ultimately trying to accomplish with them, and then shifting our perspective to then soften, soften the, our reaction to that trauma or to that wound and then begin to choose a newer, more accurate assessment of our reality and what we actually want in the world. And so I've created a coaching program that really distills everything that I've learned from the psychedelic space down to. You know, a program that anybody can do and doesn't involve psychedelics. But helps to, you know, it, it still has that seed of wisdom and how I approach, how we can approach the wound and alchemize the wound and alchemize the trauma to actually turn it into something meaningful. And one of the fundamental beliefs that I have is that you know, where the wound is or where the trauma is, is often where we have our greatest gift. For me, one of my biggest wounds was that you know, my, uh, that I, I didn't feel like the people in my life were present with me. And so one of the gifts that I bring to other people is a gift of presence is the gift of self acceptance or acceptance of another unconditional love. So, so when we start to understand that we actually, when we integrate these wounds and integrate these traumas. A powerful gift emerges and that's often what we're meant to give to the world is the gift of the wound that we experienced when we were younger. I

That's interesting because at the end of the day, right? It's especially in the U S where I think worldwide at this time, there's this, this trauma. No, no one knows what they're doing as a parent. You know, we're all figuring it out, right? You're bound to have some trauma or, or drama. If it's not the culture, it's the, it's the parents, and if it's not the parents, it's the family. If it's not the family, then it's the, the, the food or the politics. And I feel like something's gonna happen and you're not alone. Um, something happened and you probably don't know and it's okay, you're here and you're going to go through an experience. You're going to remember what that was that you're fighting and you forgot all about it. And you built this whole persona thinking that's the way life is. And it seems like what you're you see that a lot. You saw that in yourself. You saw that in other people. Yeah. Yeah. And this is helping with that, right? That looking, I guess they call like the inner child and, or there's just different ways to go about it. So I think that's pretty cool that that's your, your focus. And I'm not surprised because when you leave yourself and you have that perspective, you get to see all the stuff that you layered up on yourself. Right? But it also was interesting. And I caught what you said. You're like, I don't, you don't need. psychedelics for this program that you created. Is that, is that correct? I'm very curious why you did it that way, because you're, you're, you're, you're a guide for transformation. And one of the main things you use is psychedelics. So why would you create a, a guy that might not even use that? I'm curious.

think I've done so much work in the psychedelic space. That I've, I have come to the place where I realized that a lot of the gift of what psychedelics does is it presents us with new technologies, right? A new technology for self love, a new technology for self acceptance. new technology for how we can relate with ourselves. And, and so, uh, you know, as it stands right now, psychedelics are really valuable because they're moving people in the world from a state of, you know, uh, being unwell to a new baseline of just being well enough that they can move through the world, right? Without and, and so I think when you work with psychedelics long enough, you realize that you don't actually need them anymore and that you can become the medicine, as I like to say. And, and so I bring that perspective into those coaching containers that That I can distill down, you know, a lot of what uh, these psychedelic experiences have given me and what they've given to other people into a really approachable way for people who maybe don't want to work with psychedelics to still experience the benefit and the wisdom that comes from psychedelics. Without having to experience them themselves, but then of course, you know, if people want to work with them, like my door is always open, you know, it, you don't, it, To, to experience it for yourself is quite profound, but for me, it's just another gateway for people to begin to step into the work of being human and embracing the reality that we're all wounded in life and we're all traumatized and there's nothing you can do as a parent to avoid wounding or traumatizing your children. and you can't protect your children from the world wounding and traumatizing them.

we're all messed up man we're all messed up

we're all messed up. And like, that's a beautiful thing. Cause like it's, it's the wounds and the traumas that invite us into our greater gifts. And, and so to me, it's not about getting rid of trauma. It's about learning how to live and embrace the gift that the trauma is actually providing the roadmap to our. Highest purpose in life. And that's, that's what we want is we want a population of people who are alive and awake to one, what is painful about their experience and to what they can do in service to other people because of the pain that they have experienced in life, it's this gift of alchemy that ultimately gives us meaning in the world. it's a beautiful thing.

So James Is there anything? That maybe we glossed over that we didn't talk about that Came up to mind that you wanted to mention Is there anything that you feel like you wanted to share before we uh close out today?

Well. we talked about a lot.

Yeah, we did. Mm.

I, I think. You know, one of the, one of the most important things I've come to realize in the work that I do is that intention really matters. Preparation really matters. Integration really matters. It's really easy to look at psychedelic experiences as as a sort of Holy Grail, the end all be all, the silver bullet. And as, as much as they can teach us about ourselves. without, uh, a, an adequate preparation and integration process. And, and what I think is included in that is having a guide or having somebody that's, you know, capable of holding space for you and also reflecting back, uh, to you, the uh, you know, the, the unconditional love that's in your own heart through how they show up for you. And, and what they can teach you about yourself. Those are, those are really important. Those are really important factors. And I think the preparation integration is actually more important than the, than the experience with psychedelics themselves. And so, if, if people are curious about psychedelics for their own healing, I would say do your best to find somebody who is, you know, going to be a good steward for you. And and, and. And when you are looking for somebody, uh, a really important factor to consider is how deeply have people gone with these medicines themselves into their own work. Guides, coaches, uh, people out there in the world who are, you know, uh, who you're calling on for services, uh, can only take you as deeply as they've taken themselves. And so any, any kind of vetting process that you put people through for coaching, guiding, facilitation, whatever, ask them what they've put themselves through and what they've learned along the way. Uh, cause that will help to paint the landscape and the picture for how they are going to serve you. And, uh, and bring as much intention to this process as, as you can, because I think. Uh, you know, as a general thematic in life, the more intentional that we can be with how we show up in a moment to moment basis, you know, how we show up at a family function, how we show up at a business meeting, how we show up in a moment of conflict with our, Primary partner or, or any relationships that we have in the world is, is a sort of microcosm for how we show up for ourselves. And, and it's the, it's intention the way we connect to our own intention in the world that ultimately over time is going to predict how fulfilling our life is.

So, Now that we know who you are and how you help people, and we're all messed up, but we can do better. is there anything, one, is there anything that you're working on right now that you wanted to shed light on or future project? And two, what is the best way for anybody to contact you that you, that you suggest?

Well, I, So my website center of all directions. com has a fair amount of resources and explanation for who I am and what I do in the world. I offer this trans this eight week transformational coaching program that embraces all the wisdom that I've gleaned from the use of and guidance with psychedelics. And so that's available for people who really live anywhere, who want to, uh, better understand what makes them tick in the world and, you know, what brings them meaning and purpose and also what helps relieve stress, you know, people are living in the world full of stress and right. And, and so we need you know, if you're looking to embrace a more peaceful existence. and you don't know how that coaching program is great program. I also am a guide and, uh, facilitate journeys. So, you know, if people want to come to Colorado and experience psychedelics for themselves and want a really thorough guided process that helps them understand who they are. That's also available for people. I'm building out a free, I have a free men's group that meets over zoom, uh, every third Wednesday of the month. And so anybody who's looking, any men who are looking for just a space to come and talk about their problems, their challenges, be vulnerable but be vulnerable in a way that embraces the power behind the vulnerability or wants to work out what it means to be courageous in the world. And embody more of, of who they are. That's a great free resource that I'm really excited about. And then I have, uh, I'm on Instagram at James Eshelman. I don't post as often as I should, but I do often share some resources that help, you know, convey a perspective of, of life that is more inclusive of all the pain and suffering that, you know, life inevitably is, but also like the joy and the bliss that comes from us being with the fullness of our experience all the time. And, and so those are, those are some great places to start.

Cool, man. I had some fun. It was interesting to, to hear your story and other people's stories and get a little bit more. Deeper into just what to expect from ayahuasca and philosophy and these journeys. Thanks for coming on man. I appreciate you appreciate your time and sharing and more importantly your service to helping people Ultimately love themselves. Appreciate it, man.

Yeah, thank you very much for having me. Love the conversation.